[00:00:01] Hey everyone this is Lynn Vartan and you are listening to the A.P.E.X Hour on K91ɬÂþ Thunder 91.1. In this show you get more personal time with the guests who visit Southern Utah University from all over. Learning more about their stories and opinions beyond their presentations onstage. We will also give you some new music and hope to turn you onto new sounds and new genres. You can find us here every Thursday at 3:00p.m. or on the web at suu.edu/apex But for now welcome to this week's show here on Thunder 91.1
[00:00:47] Welcome everyone. This is Lynn Vartan and you're listening to K91ɬÂþ Thunder 91.1 And this is the A.P.E.X Hour we have been having such a great week here. My guest today is Florence Williams. And we have been outside all week we have been talking about her book The Nature fix which we're going to talk about more today. And we've just been celebrating her visit on campus. She is visiting campus as are Eccles Visiting scholar part of our wonderful Eccles Visiting Scholar program here at Southern Utah University and also as an apex speaker. So welcome FLORENCE WILLIAMS.
[00:01:28] Thank you so much Lynn. It's great to be here.
[00:01:30] What a pleasure to have you. I have so many things to talk to you about. We've been enjoying being outside. We've had so many classes reading your book and asking you questions about specific chapters and all of those kinds of things. But before we get into the details I'd love to start by just talking about how you came to do what you do. I know you transitioned. I mean you've you've done a lot in journalism and you've done a lot of different kinds of writing. Tell us how you came from there to here.
[00:02:00] Yes sure I'd be happy to. I really started out as an environmental journalist my first job out of college was working for our wonderful magazine called High Country News based in western Colorado. I was really interested in environmental issues and I was interested in land resource issues interested in the Rocky Mountain West. We covered 10 states and so.
[00:02:22] Oh Wow.
[00:02:23] Yeah. So I really you know it's just a great sort of training ground. And I I was reading a lot of stories about things like the Clean Air Act you know and congressional races. And at some point I guess since around the start the time I became a mother actually I realized that I was really more interested in the people piece of the environmental sort of equation. I wanted to know how pollution and how we were treating the planet was sort of affecting human health. And so I started writing more about you know environmental health really and from that I had to learn a lot of science. I had to learn sort of what it meant when industrial molecules entered our bloodstream. I had to learn about the human endocrine system. It was really an amazing education I had never been that interested in any sort of street science in biology before and suddenly I was completely fascinated by it wanting to write about it wanted to tell these stories.
[00:03:22] It came from sort of also the personal time of having children and that's sort of what led to some of the studies I think that led you to your first book right.
[00:03:32] Yes my first book was really a look at women's reproductive health. It's specifically breast health how industrial chemicals were getting into human breast milk. I actually sent my breast milk off to a lab in Germany and it came back positive for jet fuel ingredients for pesticides and for flame retardants.
[00:03:53] I mean when you opened that were you just frightened.
[00:03:55] Well by the time I had sent it off I knew to expect it because it's actually in everyone's bloodstreams.
[00:04:01] And how does that happen.
[00:04:03] It happens because we live in a world with a lot of permeable chemicals. Every time we sit on a couch the molecules in our couch you know waft into the air we ingest. We touch them we breathe them in. There are chemicals in our food there are chemicals in our water. You know most of these exist really really low levels. And it's not huge cause for alarm but when you're talking about a fetus and an infant and a developing neuro endocrine system suddenly these questions become really really relevant really important. And we have to start asking them.
[00:04:38] Yeah and then your first book remind me the date that that that came out.
[00:04:42] That came out in 2012.
[00:04:43] OK. And then you move into nature and the background a little bit about the Nature Fix has a little bit to do with where you were living. Is that right. Exactly.
[00:04:52] I was so fortunate to spend two decades living in the Rocky Mountains I lived in Montana for 10 years I lived in Colorado for 12 years and then my then husband got a job in Washington D.C. And you know it was a big decision to move. And I even I didn't even realize how much I would miss those mountains and the nature and how much it would affect my sense of well-being and my sense of emotional you know happiness my sense of anxiety all these things really shifted when I moved into the heart of a big city.
[00:05:29] Did it hit you right away or.
[00:05:31] Yes.
[00:05:31] It's a slow burn. Oh it's right away.
[00:05:34] It hit me right away it was you know it's such a shock moving from you know the Rocky Mountains to Washington D.C. It was 104 degrees when we landed.
[00:05:44] Oh my gosh.
[00:05:45] Incredibly humid. You know 104 degrees on the East Coast is pretty different from 104 degrees here.
[00:05:52] It's not the dry heat we have here.
[00:05:54] It's not the dry heat. You know I felt like it was a moonscape because there were no children playing outside. So where is everyone. You know people just have a very different relationship to the natural world there. I thought it was really gray and you know very lots of asphalt lots of straight lines straight geometry incredible amount of noise pollution and these things immediately affected me.
[00:06:20] And so then was it was it obvious to you right away that you wanted to explore that in writing or how did how did it turn into the book and research.
[00:06:32] Well at first it was just purely personal. I just thought oh my god I really miss the mountains I really miss the trees. I miss the birds and miss nature help and I was really fortunate just to get an assignment from Outside Magazine where I'm a contributing editor and they wanted me to really explore the science behind why being in nature makes us feel so good. And so I had to really you know do a lot of research to find out where to go which places around the world were doing this kind of research and what would make an interesting story. And I settled on Japan where there's a lot of research looking into the human physiological system our central nervous systems and how that's how that's affected by living in a city versus being in a forest.
[00:07:17] And I might as well just ask you now because I wanted to ask you later when we get into the book and this beautiful term that that is in your book and that is a Japanese term originally forest bathing. So you sort of found had you known about it before.
[00:07:34] No I had never heard of forest bathing the Japanese term mission Xinran Yoku and some people think it must be this very ancient Japanese practice but it's not. It was actually something that was promoted by the government in the 1980s.
[00:07:49] Oh that recent.
[00:07:50] That recent and it was really a response to the incredible stress of life in Tokyo.
[00:07:55] Yeah.
[00:07:56] You know where people work the longest Office Hours on the planet. Very high rates of suicide. And so the government was really desperate to figure out ways to help people you know relieve stress.
[00:08:09] I had no idea that it was such a recent discovery and they just put a ton of research and data. They've been collecting a lot. And can you describe for our audience I know you do a great job of talking about it in the book and I know so many people are so interested in the book based on your visit. And again the book is the nature fix. But can you tell us a little bit about forest bathing and you had some very intimate experiences with it.
[00:08:38] Well sure. Yes I had to try it out does not involve taking off your bathrobe. It's really a way of engaging all five senses. And the Japanese have figured out that if you can get into a zone where you're very mindful of the place where you are in the forest and you can sort of focus and it does take focus it takes deliberation focus on listening to the birds feeling the breeze on your skin maybe feeling the moss in your fingers. It's very tactile even drinking tea made from the bark looking at certain patterns you know in the trees and in the creek if you do that even for 15 minutes it's not a very long time. Your nervous system responds in a way that is very stressed really so your blood pressure goes down your heart rate slows respiration increases. You know you breathe more slowly. Everything smells so fantastic. Cypress forests are amazing and cortisol which is a stress hormone really reduces gets lowered after just 15 minutes of forest bathing.
[00:09:48] I'd love to zero in a little more on that. The concept of the the alertness or the awareness because I think some people maybe tend to think oh well I'm just going to go outside and of course that's great. But but this forest bathing concept this is is an alert awareness really intentional. I mean that seems like a key component.
[00:10:08] It's really a key component and I have to tell you Lynn it it really taught me to look at being in nature in a different way because I used to mostly go out for exercise. You know I would go up the mountain and I thought sort of the point was to get exercise and of course I did and that's very very good for us. But the Japanese made me realize it's actually very mental. Yeah it's about being present so you know Buddhists talk about this all the time they talk about mindfulness but nature it turns out is really a great teacher for being mindful. But you know you have to take the ear buds out and you have to sort of stop that internal you know sound script in your head that's no reminding you what's for dinner and you know what am I going to do when I'm done with this hike and you have to of turn off that internal voice to the extent possible. And it really helps to cue into the landscape. Yeah like I say to myself now. Oh I wonder what birds are out here or I'd love to hear the sound of that that little brat babbling brook. I wonder what it sounds like today. And I find that doing that really is a shortcut to stress reduction.
[00:11:15] I love that. And you also I know from our just a couple of times out together you like to really feel things between your fingers too you. You often will grab a hold of something and sort of feel it for that tactile part too.
[00:11:28] I really do. And I also I go crazy for the wonderful aromas of being in the woods. So you're taking me on some great hikes Lynn and you know I do I grab especially evergreen needles to I'll peel a few off and I'll you know crunch them in my fingers and I'll smell them and I'll even hike with them for a while and I'll keep smelling them because those pine scents are so invigorating.
[00:11:51] Yeah.
[00:11:52] The nose is a direct pathway to the brain and it can change our mood and our behaviors really really quickly. And you know if you think about it when you sometimes you go into a retail store and retailers have figured this out you know they are misting the smells of citrus or cinnamon or whatever and it's because psychologists have proven that that will make you a little more relaxed it will help you spend more money and when you're in the woods when you smell those things you actually instantly feel more alive you feel more connected to the landscape you're in. And it really increases your mood.
[00:12:25] And I know people you've been asked this before but can you also bring those things indoors to help. Can you use it aroma therapy. I mean it's not a it's not a substitute. And I'm not suggesting that at all. But I know I love when my house you know is that also something that you would suggest.
[00:12:43] Yeah absolutely. And in fact if you go to a place like South Korea they almost fetishized some of these wood products so you can buy toothpaste that smells like pine trees which is kind of bizarre you know not something we're used to. You can buy wonderful shampoos that smell like the forests aroma therapy. You know I think there's something to it. I know I like to put lavender drops in my bath. Yeah. And we know it really can shift your mood. It's quite interesting.
[00:13:11] That's awesome. Well it's already time for our first musical break. And so let's see I have a couple of things to play. And when we come back we'll get more into the nature fix with Florence Williams. You're listening to the A.P.E.X Hour here on K91ɬÂþ Thunder 91.1
[00:15:35] OK well welcome back. So have to make my correction first. This is Lynn Vartan You're listening to the A.P.E.X. Hour That song was not good day bad by Michelle and digging and Shela. I made a mistake. It happens. The song that you just heard was also on my list to play today and that song is called give my body back. And the group is called the Low Anthem. Also a nice kind of groove today. So welcome back to the studio. Florence Williams.
[00:16:02] Thanks so much.
[00:16:03] Well let's get more into the book so we know the nature fix. Your book talks a lot about how important it is to get out there and I know one of the first questions out of everybody's mouth is Well how much time do we actually need. And I know that there's a lot of different varying reports. I mean even earlier just now you mentioned that even just 15 minutes outside can make a difference so I wonder if you could walk us through the different lengths and the and the data behind it and the recommendations.
[00:16:35] Sure absolutely. And I structured my book by dose because people are always really interested in this and it seems like kind of useful information or kind of helpful way to structure some of the science. You know the reality is most of us do live in cities.
[00:16:49] Yes.
[00:16:50] And so how much do we need and how hard we try to get it. And so right. According to the Japanese research and some of the South Korean research and other places even having very short 15 to 30 minute exposures can improve our moods can can lower our blood pressure and be really helpful. And in fact if you can't even do that there are still benefits for example to having a view of trees and grass or beauty outside your window. So you know if you have a desk you know by all means think about putting it where there's a view you can look up and get a micro break. Give your brain your thinking brain. A tiny break in the actually the science shows that you'll be a little bit sharper when you go back to your task after just looking out the window.
[00:17:39] The micro concept. You know you talk about him many people know I'm a musician and so when I'm coaching students for practicing you know we we say oh the typical music student can practice for six hours a day. But you can't stay inside at one instrument for six hours a day. You may need to take five minutes every 45 minutes or so and have a micro break and all the better if it's outside.
[00:18:06] Yes. I mean there are a lot of people who are looking at sort of maximizing brain training brain efficiency. You know there are computer games we can play that are supposed to make us better at multitasking and even some of those neuroscientists are looking to nature as a way to give us a maximal break so that when we go back after five minutes we're sharper.
[00:18:27] The test scores improve. We see this in a lot of the data too.
[00:18:30] That's right. Some of the some of the window studies again show that hospital patients ask for less pain medication if they have a view of a tree as opposed to a view of a brick building with students test scores go up if they're also surrounded by some some green lawn or some green play areas. And you know even even just sitting on a bench and having your lunch there I'm getting some natural daylight for a few minutes can really do wonders not just for your mood but but even for your circadian rhythms which can help you sleep better help your health overall. And then of course you know the more nature you get the better it seems like there's a dose curve. So you know if you actually go for a walk or have a longer sit in nature you're going to have more restoration. And I love this the Finnish researchers have a specific recommendation and they think that you can actually prevent depression by going and getting a minimum dose of five hours a month.
[00:19:35] This is amazing.
[00:19:36] So that translates to about 2 visits in denature a week for 30 to 40 minutes each time which seems you know pretty doable.
[00:19:44] Seems reasonable and I mean we talk at the university level so much about anxiety and depression and in here we have a literal prescription if you will the finished study is very interesting because I mean the Finns tend to be a models for so many things for us. And you studied what kind of how they came to this and and their schooling and things like that too and so they came up with this and they they implemented on a national level .
[00:20:16] Well it's a recommendation you know like everywhere the Finnish are grappling with more kind of diseases of the indoors. So things like obesity and diabetes and depression and suicide. And so researchers there are very eager to figure out how to help relieve stress how to help them be healthier. And it looks like you know they'll say if you can get 10 hours a month that's even better you know. But if you can only get five hours in a month go for it. And I don't know if that's going to really translate across cultures.
[00:20:50] That's what I wanted to ask because I mean the fins and I think you mentioned this either in your talk today or in the book. They've always had quite a strong connection to nature and so I wonder how that would play out here.
[00:21:04] Right. Right. I think certainly a lot of Americans were now facing two generations of people who are pretty disconnected from nature. You know they've lived in cities for many generations. They themselves did not necessarily go camping or hiking when they were kids. And so maybe they need a little more time or they need a more gradual introduction.
[00:21:25] But there's hope right. People here can even you can get certified and forest bathing guiding. Is that right.
[00:21:32] There is a national certification now in the U. S. So you can get certified to be a forest bathing guide. I actually recently met a doctor who has herself gotten certified. She completely believes that this is necessary for our health and the health of her patients. There are now a thousand doctors in the United States who are actually prescribing time in parks. So their patients is really interesting.
[00:21:59] That's amazing. I mean what a perfect way better than taking prescription drugs I think.
[00:22:05] I mean in the end the side effects are positive the side effects are well you might you might actually improve your aerobic fitness you might get a little extra vitamin D.
[00:22:14] Those are definitely the things I want to see on the side of a bottle that may increase the aerobic fitness may feel maybe make you feel better.
[00:22:22] May cause unexpected euphoria.
[00:22:24] Yeah I love that. And So I think one of the really amazing parts of your discussion today was the nature pyramid and so it seems like all these different doses sort of come into this pyramid structure of ways to interact and can you talk a little bit about how that is constructed.
[00:22:44] Yeah I ran into the idea of the nature pyramid from a researcher at the University of Virginia Tim Beasley and he's really popularized it. You know it's kind of based on this idea of a food pyramid which is like what should our allotment of nature be. What's the right allocation. And you know our bread and butter is really going to be where we all spend the most time and where we live and that's going to be cities or towns large towns so it's really that near by nature which is why it's so important that we have high quality parks that we have green schoolyards that we allow our kids to have recess. We need to kind of maximize that that dose and to make it really work for us and to make us healthy. But the middle of the pyramid would be more like intentional visits to regional or state parks maybe longer picnics or outings you know places where we can really experience a deeper sense of relaxation a deeper kind of social bonding. If we go with our families or with our friends a little bit more time away from our technology which has been proven to be really good for us in many ways. And then at the tippy top of the pyramid are these kind of very rare but still critically important and delicious doses of wilderness and wild places.
[00:23:59] Yeah. So what kind of work from the day to day to the to the very special. And I know you spend some time talking about aw and the ones would be maybe those those ones really at the tip of the pyramid those really special opportunities.
[00:24:16] Well I don't want to suggest that you can only find awe in the wilderness and in fact one thing I've been really delighted to learn is that we can cultivate a sense of awe. And researchers believe that if we readily access states of all. It's really really good for our interpersonal skills. It's good for making us feel more connected not only to the larger world around us but to each other we behave in more generous giving ways if we experience aha. 50 percent of the time that people experience. It's actually from the natural world and we can experience it in a city if we know how to look for it. So you know a sunset for example a full moon a butterfly or a beautiful bird unexpectedly flying in front of our path. These are things that draw us out of the inner drama of our own heads and make us feel like we're part of a larger beautiful world.
[00:25:12] Well that's great because it doesn't. We don't have to feel that. It's really it is something that anybody can get at a time if they look for it. I think that's a beautiful sort of sentiment a beautiful concept to really go for. We don't have to you know drive five hours to go camping. You can cultivate a sense of I haven't really thought of it that way.
[00:25:34] I love too. It's really kind of opening our eyes sometimes taking the ear buds out and making again that deliberate effort to tune in. Yeah you know to the beautiful things around us.
[00:25:47] Yeah well the healing part of it you mentioned just a few minutes ago and the hospital rooms and and some of the studies and you experienced that. Also even with your father's recuperation and how the outdoors help. But I know Florence Nightingale. It's just such a beautiful thing. The name carried over and better than Hurricane Florence. Yeah. But the studies kind of began with her in a way right.
[00:26:17] Well she intuitively understood that patients need clean air and bright natural light in order to heal. She would watch as very ill patients would turn their heads to the window so that they could feel the sunlight. This she just intuitively got the dough that the natural world was important to sort of our sense of well-being. And then we forgot it for 100 100 years. Now you know we we put patients in big climate controlled hospital rooms and shut the windows.
[00:26:50] Why do you think that was is it just the industrialization of everything or do you think it's a cultural. I mean why would we do that.
[00:26:57] I think it's a very efficient way to deliver care. You can stack a lot of patients in one building and of course we know we started to believe in the germ theory model of medicine which is that you're sick because you ingested a germ or you got infected by a germ. And I think now we're starting to come back to this more holistic view of health. You know that it also we need to optimize our health really to maximize our well-being. It's not just preventing germs. But it's really nurturing our senses nurturing our brains and and feeling alive.
[00:27:31] That's great. Well it's time for another bit of music. And now I'm really going to play the Michelle, and then maybe when we come back I'd love to get into you know how we can help our children. And as we move forward and getting children outside and talking a little bit about recess and those kinds of things. But in the meantime let's finally hear good day bad by Michelle.
[00:32:09] OK. Welcome back everyone to the A.P.E.X. Hour
[00:32:12] That was a good day bed by Michelle, I love the end of that song just like whistling that kind of trails off in the distance. We are here in the studio with Florence William and we're talking mostly about her book The Nature effects but let me take this opportunity to tell you a little bit about some of the other things that she does. She's journalist bestselling author pod caster and I definitely wanted to ask you a little bit more about the new pod cast the 3 day effect which is available on Audible and contributing editor to outside magazine. She is written for The New York Times New York Times Magazine National Geographic The New York Review of Books slate. Mother Jones and numerous other publications. And in addition to talking at Southern Utah University today she's given talks said Google the Smithsonian the Seattle zoo the Aspen Ideas Festival and many many others.
[00:33:06] So welcome back. Florence.
[00:33:07] Thank You Lynn
[00:33:10] Yeah maybe this is a good time to talk about your one of your newer projects the three day effect and I just think this is such a cool thing that you're doing because it's part it is a pod cast but also kind of an audio documentary and book and tell us a little bit about that.
[00:33:30] Sure. I would definitely describe it as an audio documentary.
[00:33:33] I love that
[00:33:34] It is based on the book but it's completely new information and totally newly reported right. So we did six episodes and we really focused focus it around the three day effect which is this idea that transformational things can happen to us after three days in the wilderness. So for the podcast we found different groups of people who were very much in need of healing outside. And then we also connected with researchers who were studying those populations outside. So we have two episodes on a group of veterans running Canyon and of the Green River. And while they were out there they were wearing brain wave measuring devices. They were also performing some cognitive tests. I ran all these things on myself as well which is kind of interesting. And so there is actually science going on. It wasn't just you know let's see how much people start singing Kumbaya. And then and then I also went out with a group of sex trafficking survivors which is really fascinating really powerful. These are women who had been already in therapy for a year I really had had many many years of trauma to work on. They found some some really powerful and transformative moments outside and I get into the theory of wilderness therapy and how feminists are actually kind of changing and challenging the traditional role of you know kind of conquering wilderness to conquer your fears. Yeah. And these women really kind of brought home the lesson for me that it's not necessarily about conquering or about challenge or about hardship but actually about finding a place of safety. So it was a kind of fascinating reversal of the way I think we often think about outdoor therapy and outdoor adventure. And then for sort of some comic relief we also take a writer from Washington DC out who hates nature and he has writer's block and a lot of sort of creative you know blockages going on and. And we measure him up with some blood pressure machines some other stress stress measuring machines. And it turns out that he really improved out there after three days even though he complained about it all the time and he went home and he wrote three chapters of his book. So. There you go.
[00:35:59] Oh my gosh that's great. So you can hear all of those stories at the three day effect which is available on Audible dot com and you did these tests on yourself as well and I you find any shocking results or anything that surprised you.
[00:36:17] Yeah I mean for the most part I think it was kind of expected that I also felt better now after being outside my my blood pressure also went down after three days outside. I also sometimes felt more creative and I was also in my own life just dealing with some personal issues. I have a recent divorce that I'm kind of tackling. And so I felt like I needed the time outside too.
[00:36:43] Yeah that's that's really cool. And I'm so excited to dig into that and learn more about it and that's just been out for you said Couple of months.
[00:36:52] Few weeks.Yeah It's available through the audible app or you can find it through Amazon which is related to audible and your website too. I think there are other links on there. I'm also on social media which has some links great.
[00:37:08] Ok cool. Well one of the things I know you're really passionate about now and and have always been. But I know you're sort of involved in some research now has to do with with with children and the importance of getting our kids out there and sharing it with the next generation and sort of helping them. It really is going to help them adapt to this world. So can you talk a little bit about some of your current experiences or some of those things that relate specifically to getting children outside.
[00:37:40] Well I'm so passionate about getting children outside. And the thing about children is they want to be outside you know young children have a natural affinity for beautiful things and for interesting things and you know I'm sure we've all seen children just be able to kind of watch the caterpillar crawl by with incredible wonder in their eyes. If we could only all regain that sense of wonder and yet we create these lives for them where they're in cars and there and strapped into car seats and they're strapped into classrooms. We make them sit at a table in kindergarten and give them a crayon and tell them what to do that there's just not enough free play or adventure that for example the man who invented kindergarten Frederick Froebel in 1837. He fully understood that young children should have some self directed curiosity. They should learn by following their curiosity. They should have access to beautiful flowers and gardens and you know real live animals and trees where they're so happy. So I'm passionate about this I think that we've really removed nature from so many children's lives and we know from the studies that when children do spend more time outside they build more resilience to stress they have more self-esteem and more self-confidence they are more comfortable in social groups. They work better in teams. You know these are life skills that they really are going to need forever.
[00:39:06] One of the studies that you mentioned has to do with recess and it may be going back to that either in the finished study I can't remember exactly which one but I was fascinated by that. Can you share the difference in how recess is handled in different parts of the world.
[00:39:23] Well it's so devastating here how few kids really get adequate recess. And we know that there's an epidemic of inactivity among school children today. And in fact when a kid often acts out in school that child is sometimes punished by not being able to go outside. exactly the opposite probably of what that kid really needs. And I think one of the studies I saw said that 21 percent of children on any given day in America are getting zero recess. There's a great disparity racially too among who has access to recess. So 36 percent of white kids you know may or 36 percent of African-American kids may not have recess compared to 15 percent of white children. And you know access to nature overall has become a social justice issue one that we don't always think about.
[00:40:17] And one of the examples is that test scores are high not just because teachers get paid higher abroad but because they have more they have like five or six recesses is that.
[00:40:29] Well that's also Finland. So while we have been taking away recess in this country in Finland Finland always has the highest test scores in the world. And some people think oh it's because the teachers get paid well or because the children are polite you know or they're valued in their commute whatever. But the teacher you asked the teachers why do your children do so well. They'll say well it's because they get 15 minutes a recess for every 45 minutes of instruction. So they get five recesses a day. And the teachers will say if they don't go outside they can't sit still and they're not paying attention.
[00:41:05] Yeah.
[00:41:05] So it's such a no brainer to them.
[00:41:07] I just think that's amazing. I mean I feel like that's exactly it seems like such kind of a no brainer like you know it's not just run around. Yeah. And and you would be more proud. I mean if you just take the 15 minutes then you could even shorten class periods because you get more done. Exactly. And the Freeplay component. I know I look so fondly on my childhood. And I think I was mentioning to you they would just throw us all out of the house that you know 8:00a.m. and say well we'll put food out for you at noon and then off we'd go again until dinner time. You know and and I think that that that kind of unwatched exploration seems to be really really important.
[00:41:52] Kids are getting so little of that now their lives are so over scheduled when they are outside they're often on sports teams where they are told which direction to run. What to do with the ball. There is an adult sort of hovering over them at all times. Yeah that sense of just fending for yourself a little bit and learning some lessons and making your way in the world these again these are skills that they're going to need. We are actually preventing them from gaining those life skills.
[00:42:21] But as a parent I mean how do you how do you introduce that and not be just the only one doing something wild and crazy.
[00:42:30] Yeah I think that's a great idea and it's actually I think it's a valid concern that you know parents don't want their kid to be the only one roaming around alone in the woods of course.
[00:42:38] Yeah.
[00:42:38] So what's happening in many parts of the country is that parents are getting together they're forming family nature groups. This is an activity that's been promoted by the journalist Richard luve. There is no and a supervising adult sort of on the periphery if anyone needs help. But no one is telling the kid this is what you do with this piece of equipment or this is how you play with this stone and this twig. You know it's letting children have some imaginary imagination imagining story play and some exploration. There are also summer camps are a terrific way to expose kids to nature and activities. There are more programs afterschool that are allowing kids the option for free play. It's kind of ironic some of those costs money we used to do it for free. Yeah.
[00:43:28] Yeah. Well one of the things that you mentioned that I'd like to touch on a little more is the socioeconomic component that that especially in urban situations and we there's a disparity between what kind of nature and what kind of outdoor activities are available in particular to poorer communities. And what do we do about that or do you have any advice or thoughts or feelings or opinions about that part of it.
[00:43:56] Well I certainly do have thoughts and opinions that you're after after writing and researching this book I do believe that our exposure to nature our access to nature is really fundamental to who we are. It's fundamental to our humanity. We need that connection to living things in order to be our best selves. And so everyone deserves access to that. We also know that in underprivileged neighborhoods there is even more stress. So those kids need it more than anyone. And so I believe it's not just up to the families to provide this because that's hard to do. It's hard to find access but it's really up to the schools to provide environmental education and outdoor time and recess. It's up to our towns and cities to create quality parks that are accessible. Right now I think something like one in three Americans does not have access to a public park within a 10 minute walk. And so there are some nonprofits out there that are trying to change that. It's become a real priority for public health.
[00:44:58] If anybody listening wants to get involved or wants to find out more about kind of helping the cause to make that happen do you have any suggestions of where they can look.
[00:45:07] Yeah I mean there are some some resources I can direct people to the Children and Nature Network is a wonderful resource just for compiling studies and tons of summarizing them. There are groups like the Trust for Public Land which is really doing a lot of work to build these parks and to lobby mayors and sort of town planners to to provide more quality green space. There are a number of conservation groups out there who believe in protecting public land so that we have these wilderness experiences available to us and accessible to us. You know as humans we need places of solitude to and places where we can get away from industrialization even our earliest parks planner Frederick Olmsted in the 1950s understood that this was really important for public health.
[00:45:58] Yeah well thank you for those recommendations. We have one more musical break and I was going to play one song but I think I'll decide to play another because I like the groove on this one. This song is called a Tom and it's Caetano Veloso. And yet check it out see what you think. Thanks for listening to the A.P.E.X Hour
[00:48:44] OK welcome back to the A.P.E.X Hour That song was called. Tom you m. And then Tom T O M and the artist is Caetano Veloso. C h e t n o. And then Veloso V E L O S O. And just a really cool groove there to sort of send this off a little into our last segment. I'm here in the studio with Florence Williams author of The Nature fix and we've been talking about all kinds of things about get outside. But we're going to sort of switch gears a little bit and talk about writing and their writing process. I always love to ask people you know what their process is like are you. Do you tend to be somebody who writes you know eight hours a day for three months and then takes time off or do you know what's your process like do you do rewrite a lot. Are you spur them on. How does the muse strike in all of that.
[00:49:41] Oh I wish I knew I need more muse. I get to be very project based writer. So when I'm not working on a project teams are looking around for projects when I am working on a project. There are different phases of it. So for me as a nonfiction science writer there's a large phase that research. There's a large phase that's reporting or I go out in the field and I talk to experts and to talk to scientists so you know during those phases there really is not a lot of writing when it comes down to actually synthesizing all that material and being surrounded by mountains of notes and data and scientific articles. I personally find it very helpful to go to a place where I can have total concentration for long periods of time. So I love going on writers retreats. I love you know borrowing friends houses or cabin where I won't be interrupted. You know I have two kids I have a dog I have cat you know it's sometimes those interruptions can can be frustrating as a writer especially when her when you're grappling with structure and trying to answer a lot of tough questions in your writing. So I'd love to just go away and then I will try to pound out a chapter draft in like three or four days while on the way and then I'll revise it kind of went back home.
[00:50:59] And the research component and the traveling I mean and it seems like that has been such an amazing and rewarding part Perhaps for you. I mean you really sort of get all these people's lives in their research and things like that. I mean do you do. How do you collect all that. Do you just say oh this person's interested this this and then sort of fit them into where you're trying to go with your book or do you just go and get everything and then start putting things together. I don't know if that means.
[00:51:30] That sort of makes sense. I would say that to find the right characters who end up in my book and the right sources takes a lot of groundwork lot of preparation you know not every brilliant scientist is going to be brilliant on the page.
[00:51:44] Right.
[00:51:44] Are very generous with their time or good at explaining the science. So it's this special alchemy and you have to really you know kiss a lot of frogs as it were I think to find to find your Prince Charmings or your princess Charmings and and then you know I sort of go chapter by chapter. So I'll talk to the people I need to talk to. Read the articles I need to talk to you and then synthesize that one chapter at a time so I'm not one of these writers who like you know goes and does a year's worth of research and then sits down for seven months or yeah.
[00:52:16] Oh that's that's so cool to know about your book and I love what you say and you these people are characters in a way.
[00:52:24] They are definitely characters.
[00:52:25] I never really thought of it that way and I love that.
[00:52:28] You want to bring them to life on the page. And Especially because I write science and I want to make it fun and I want to make it accessible and readable. I want to humanize my scientists. I want to spend a lot of time with them I want to know what makes them tick. I want to know what they have nightmares about. I want to know you know what they would they like to eat and what they wear. And I don't necessarily use all that but it helps make them complete people.
[00:52:52] That's fantastic. That's really a wonderful way to to hear about that. Well and then we have one last question you've been so generous with your time and I know this will be hopefully the first of many visits to Southern Utah University and so thank you so much. But I have to ask you my last question that I'd love to ask all my guests and it's kind of the fun one and it's you know what's turning you on this week which doesn't have to be related to your research it doesn't have to be related to a thing it's just kind of a fun question for audience see like to get turned on to something new. So all right Florence Williams What's turning you on.
[00:53:33] Whats turning me on Lynn is hanging out with you and going on these beautiful walks. I want to just thank you for your incredible hospitality. Thank you. I mean the Apex program is amazing. Just been really terrific. Thanks for showing me some of these beautiful places.
[00:53:47] You're so welcome. I can't wait till the next time.
[00:53:50] I was reading some great fiction. Now I'm reading a book called Exit West. It's a novel by Mohsin Hamid. OK. He is a Pakistani writer.
[00:54:00] Do you mind spelling that.
[00:54:02] Yeah the last name is H A M ID.
[00:54:05] OK and the book is called.
[00:54:06] exit West. I'm loving that. I also just listen to a wonderful new podcast by one of my favorite podcast personalities. Her name is Caitlin prest. Oh OK.t she normally does a great podcast called The Heart. What's that about. Well the hard part she will really...often. There are pieces written by writers kind of about love and you know relationships are matters of art. But she's got a new one out that's been it's been distributed and produced by CBC in public radio and it is called the shadows. Oh this is a fictional podcast but I think it's quite autobiographical and I'm loving it and it's a lot about a young woman who's an artist and she is struggling with how she's thinking about love and relationships.
[00:54:59] Oh I love it so that one is called the shadows and I don't me the the woman's name again.
[00:55:03] Caitlin Prest.
[00:55:04] OK. Check it out. Well there you go that's what. Turning on Florence Williams this week. Well on that note we will say goodbye from the A.P.E.X Hour And thanks so much for being here. And Florence it has just been such a pleasure. We can't wait to read and hear about what you do next. The book we've been talking about today is called The Nature fix and then also be sure to check out the new podcast that's on Audible which is called the three day effect. So thanks so much and we'll see you next week.
[00:55:38] Thanks so much for listening to the A.P.E.X. Hour here on K91ɬÂþ Thunder 91.1 Come find us again next Thursday at 3pm for more conversations with the visiting guests at Southern Utah University and new music to discover for your next playlist. And in the meantime we would love to see you at our event's on campus. Find out more check out suu.edu/apex Until next week. This Lynn Vartan thing goodbye from the A.P.E.X. Hour here on Thunder 91.1