[00:00:01] Hey everyone Lynn Vartan and you were listening to the A.P.E.X Hour K91ɬÂþ Thunder 91. In This show you get more personal time with the guests who visit Southern Utah University from all over. Learning more about their stories and opinions beyond their presentations on stage. We will also give you some new music to listen to and hope to turn you on use them and new genres. You can find this here every Thursday at 3pm or on the web at suu.edu/apex but for now welcome to this week's show here on K91ɬÂþ Thunder 91.1.
[00:00:47] Okay well Welcome in everyone. So, this is Lynn Vartan. And for those of you who know us you know that this is an odd day for us. It's Tuesday not our normal Thursday. Well we are so excited to be doing this special A.P.E.X Hour on air. For those of you who may be listening for the first time feel free to join us normally on Thursdays at 3:00p.m. We also have a podcast that's available and you can check that out on our 91ɬÂþ website which is suu.edu/apex to find out more of the show if you like what you're hearing. Well for those of you who are tuning in today you are in for such a treat. We have our guests in the studio who is our A.P.E.X Hour guest today. A special welcome to John Carreyrou Welcome in.
[00:01:31] Hi. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:32] Yay. This has been such a great day. I'm going to tell you a little bit about John and then we're going to get into talking the event today that he participated in was generously supported by some other partners that I want to make sure to mention. First and foremost are Eccles Visiting Scholar program. So special thanks to the Eccles foundation for their support. Of course, APEX Events our 91ɬÂþ School of Business and Special thank you to our Dean Mary Pearson. The 91ɬÂþ entrepreneurship series and our Tanner Center. So, a lot of guests coming in today. John Carreyrou is an author. Many of you may know him as the author for his book that has just been skyrocketing in the last year and the book is titled Bad Blood. But he is his day job if you will is a reporter for The Wall Street Journal. And so, to start out John I'd love to talk a little bit about kind of if you could tell. For those of us who don't know what's a day in the life of a journalist for The Wall Street Journal?
[00:02:38] Ha! It's Actually not that glamorous. You know I live in Brooklyn. I have three kids. By the time I wake up in the morning around 7 or 7:30 my wife's already long gone. She's an editor rather at Bloomberg News.
[00:02:55] Ah.
[00:02:57] And my kids are 11, 13, and 15 so I'll sometimes overlap with them in the morning as they get ready for school and then we all go our separate ways I had in the journal. The Newsroom is in midtown Manhattan and the News Corp building and I've got a desk near a window on the fifth floor which is a desk I've been occupying I think for eight years now.
[00:03:22] Wow.
[00:03:23] And you know a lot of newspaper reporting is conducted over the phone. So, you know a lot of people may not realize that. Occasionally we do also get out of the office and meet sources in person and sometimes we fly to different parts of the country or different parts of the world to pursue stories but most often we're in the newsroom working the phones and talking to sources and writing stories.
[00:03:53] I don't think I realize it was that much phone interaction. Is that a part of the job that you enjoy or do you have a favorite is the writing the part that really turns you on.
[00:04:04] I love reporting and a lot of reporting is over the phone. That's just the way it is. But some of it is in person. So, we may talk about the story that my book is focused on which is all Theranos scandal and that involved getting out of the office quite a bit. And the bottom line is reporting is can be a lot of fun with each story that you report out. You're often learning new things and getting a crash course in a new field. I really enjoy that I enjoy the challenge of getting information and getting people to open up and to trust me with that information. I like breaking stories and often they're not positive stories because I'm an investigative reporter so I tend to be the bearer of bad news so to speak. But do I also love the other part of the job which is writing. Sure. I would say that I enjoy nonfiction writing even more than newspaper writing and we can get into the differences. But yeah writings is a fun part of that as well.
[00:05:20] Well I'd love to get into the differences I know I want to talk a little bit about your background but sense since you mentioned it. I'd love to know a little bit about the differences. Bad Blood is your first nonfiction book.
[00:05:32] That's right.
[00:05:33] And how is the writing different.
[00:05:37] It's very different because when you work for a newspaper or especially for the Wall Street Journal which is a newspaper well-known for how rigorous it is and vetting information and making sure that the information it publishes is accurate you're writing and attribute attributing almost every sentence that you write either to an on the record source by name or to a study or two a statement that someone put out or sometimes to an anonymous source or to a document. And so virtually if you read a Wall Street Journal story virtually every sentence will be attributed to something or someone and you can't do that when you're writing a nonfiction book. If you're hoping to hook the reader and and really you know grab him and have him or her turn the pages the readings get to the writing has got to be smoother right. And in some ways it's got to read more like fiction. It's got to be engaging. And so, it doesn't mean you sacrifice any part of the rigor that goes into the reporting the reporting stays the same but instead of attributing every sentence you will do footnotes and end-notes. And so, if you look at my book Bad Blood I think there's like 30 pages of end-notes or the end of the book. And you can refer to them and you can see that. You know I provide attribution in that manner and I and sourcing in that manner it just doesn't interrupt the narrative in the way that it does when you're reading a newspaper article.
[00:07:16] Right. Oh, that's great. Thank you for that explanation. Going into your background a little bit. I know from reading about you that you spent some of your youth- you grew up in France and spent time living in France and Brussels. Can you talk a little bit about how you came to be a journalist how you came to where you are now?
[00:07:36] Sure. So, my father is French My mother is American. And I did grow up living in France in Paris and I effectively marinated in journalism from a young age because my father was a broadcast journalist. His specialty was politics mainly domestic politics and he was a radio journalist for seven for 17 years of his career and then and then he was a network TV journalist for the last half of his career. He in fact he remains a journalist today. And I grew up really in that environment. And when I went to college I finished high school in France and went to college here in the U.S. at Duke University in North Carolina. I wanted to give other things a chance. I knew that journalism was probably always going to be an option. And so, I wanted to you know keep an open mind and try other things and so for that reason I never worked for the Duke paper the Duke Chronicle. I guess another factor probably played into it too which is that I was insecure about my writing and English. And so I wanted you know to improve my writing before I tried to do any writing for the newspaper and I never ended up working for the Chronicle and then when I got to the end of my four years and I graduated I thought long and hard about what I wanted to do and I decided that by then I'd improved as a writer a lot and I loved writing and I thought it was something that was involved writing. And I also read all the President's Men the book by Woodward and Bernstein sorry Woodward and Bernstein about Watergate and how they uncovered Watergate which was really inspiring and I thought to myself well why don't I marry you know my love of writing with reporting and journalism and which would mean either going to work for a newspaper or magazine. And so, I that's when I started applying to jobs in the newspaper industry.
[00:09:39] Oh cool. And to lead into getting into the book and getting into this amazing stuff. Yeah crazy amazing story about Theranos and you in some ways were the perfect journalist to cover this because you have some background a lot of background in medical writing medical journal reporting. Can you talk a little bit about that part of you of your time and some of those projects?
[00:10:09] Sure. So, I started my career at Dow Jones Newswires back in 1995. That's the sister wire service of the Wall Street Journal. And after two years in New York they sent me to Paris knowing I was bilingual and. And then the Journal hired me for a job in its Brussels bureau so I moved from Paris to Brussels and then the journal eventually sent me back to Paris and I spent another five years working for the Journal in Paris. And so, the first you know six to eight years of my journal career were abroad in Europe and I only came back to the mothership newsroom in New York. In 2006 early 2006. And at that point I had to specialize when you're a foreign correspondent you get to roam a lot and tackle different subjects. And you kind of know it's whatever it both in the news at the moment or the topics that you pick. But you have a lot of freedom to roam when you're working from the newsroom in New York with the hundreds of other journalists who make up the newsroom. You find out that you have to specialize because the beats are narrower. And so, I had specialized and I made the decision to specialize in medical and health care reporting. The Journal had a long tradition of fantastic health care and medical and science reporting and I knew that and so I wanted to join that tradition and be part of it. So, when I came back to New York I joined our health care and medicine desk and gravitated increasingly toward investigative reporting about the U.S. healthcare system and eventually was doing so much of it that it made sense for me to transition to the investigative group where I continued to mainly focus on that topic. And so, by the time I got to a tip regarding Theranos in early 2015 I had a decade of medical and health care reporting under my belt. And so, I was pretty well equipped to take that story on.
[00:12:15] One of the questions that came up in one of the discussions today was and we'll get into some more specifics. But that aspect of it how there had been news articles about Elizabeth and the people involved and magazine articles and some people have asked the question you know why did those agencies or organizations not see what you saw and it seems to me that your background was perfectly suited.
[00:12:45] Right. And I think that the reporters who helped Elizabeth Holmes raise her profile during 2013, 2014, into 2015 and who you know wrote about her and took all her claims at face value didn't have this background. Roger Perloff who put her on the cover of Fortune magazine in June 2014 was a legal correspondent. I don't think he'd ever written about health care or medicine. Ken Auletta who wrote a long profile of her in The New Yorker in late 2014 has written many books and does a lot of writing about Silicon Valley and about disruption about technology but not necessarily about medicine or health care. And so, you had these half dozen journalists who had spent time with her but who didn't really have the background and the expertise to question what she was telling them. And I think that was a big advantage that I had when I came along. And early 2015.
[00:13:49] Great. Well it's time for a musical break and then when we come back we will definitely get into the specifics of the story and of your book Bad Blood. So, John Carreyrou is in the studio with me. You're listening to the A.P.E.X Hour on K91ɬÂþ Thunder 91.1 I have a couple of songs to play for you today. And I think I've mentioned that I got a couple new bands sent my way are new to me at least and the first song that you're going to hear is from a band called L.A. Witch and the song is Baby in Blue Jeans so Thanks for listening to the A.P.E.X Hour.
[00:18:48] Right. Well welcome back everyone. This is Lynn Vartan and you are listening to the A.P.E.X Hour here on K91ɬÂþ Thunder 91.1 I'm thrilled to be joined in the studio today with John Carreyrou. Welcome back. John t.
[00:19:02] Hanks for having me.
[00:19:03] That song that you were listening to is called Baby in Blue Jeans and the band is called LA Which is special shout out to Sylvia my dear friend who's been recommending a couple of great bands and throwing them my way. Thanks Sylvia. So, John Carreyrou is the author of Bad Blood and many people know the story. But if you don't mind just giving a little bit of an outline in case anybody is new to the party.
[00:19:29] Sure. So, the bad blood is the story of Theranos and its founder Elizabeth Holmes. Elizabeth was a sophomore at Stanford University back in 2003 when she decided to drop out of school and launch a startup in the heart of Silicon Valley that she called Theranos. That was a combination of the words therapy and diagnosis and she had a vision for her startup which is that it would create a medical device a blood testing device that would be portable and that would be able to test for hundreds of different (inaudible) from a tiny sample blood prick from the finger and she went about raising money and hired people and they built several iterations of the technology and unfortunately they encountered setbacks because medical science is hard and they didn't really ever fulfill her vision that they had prototypes that didn't work. And yet she nonetheless went live with these fake and faulty blood tests in Walgreens stores in California and Arizona in late 2013. And as she launched commercially this pseudo technology she raised her profile and she became well-known in Silicon Valley and beyond and her company reached a valuation of ten billion dollars and she had half the stock. So, she was effectively worth five billion dollars. She was the youngest self-made female billionaire on the planet. And then I came along. In early 2015 I exposed her lies first with an investigative article in The Wall Street Journal in late 2015 and that eventually was corroborated by regulatory actions and led to all sorts of fallout and I followed that up with the book Bad Blood that I published last May. And three weeks after my book was published Elizabeth Holmes and her ex-boyfriend who had been the number two executive at the company were indicted on criminal fraud charges and they are now awaiting trial facing prison terms of as many as 20 years.
[00:21:47] And I know a lot of people have asked where the different trials are right now the civil case was settled.
[00:21:54] Elizabeth Holmes settled her side of the civil case with the Securities and Exchange Commission. She agreed to surrender most of her stock in Theranos which by the way has since been dissolved is no longer an ongoing concern. She also agreed to pay a half million dollars as a penalty and she agreed to be banned from being a director or officer in a public company for 10 years. But Sunny her alleged co-conspirator is still fighting the SEC civil case. So, whereas Elizabeth has settled the SEC civil case he's still fighting it so he's still fighting on two fronts he's fighting the civil case against the SEC and he's fighting the criminal case against the U.S. attorney's office in San Francisco.
[00:22:39] And the criminal case. We don't have dates yet. That's still in the works.
[00:22:44] The next status conference is in April and the hope is that the judge sets a trial date at that status conference. I doubt that the trial would start before the very end of this year and more likely it will start sometime next year.
[00:23:00] And I think one of the things that that brings to light is the. I mean it has consumed your life for a great four years now for years and then to look at the scope of the story the beginnings are 2006 or maybe even earlier.
[00:23:16] So she dropped out in late 2003 she incorporated Theranos as a company in 2004. And then I exposed her in 2015. So, the company was going for a dozen years before she was exposed and then the fallout leads in to 2020 probably.
[00:23:33] Right, right, right. yeah, I know there's a long arc to this story.
[00:23:37] And that's one of the things about it that is. I mean there are I think the thing that I've been just realizing again and again over the course of your visit here is that the scope of it and the time is just one of those things. I've been now watching. You've been so generous to speak with classes and have different meals and things and one of the things that's been so amazing is how everyone is just transfixed about learning more about this. and Did that aspect of it surprise you kind of the way the world especially the United States but the world kind of grabbed onto this with all the different facets.
[00:24:21] Yeah not so much because it was when I fell upon it and then reported it out and learned all the facts. I thought that it was a crazy story myself with you know various subplots including you know a family feud between a famous grandfather and his grandson and egregious fraud the not just investors being lied to but also patients and doctors being misled the public health being jeopardized. And you know attempts to intimidate me and my newspaper The Wall Street Journal when we were going to report the story as well as you know my sources being put under surveillance and threatened. And one of arguably most famous and most aggressive lawyers in America was involved in a story on behalf of Theranos, David Boies. So, I realized early on that this had all the ingredients to be a story in a book that that fascinated a lot of people and that had a lot of crossover appeal. I'm not so I'm not entirely surprised that you know that people can't seem to get enough of this story.
[00:25:37] Well it's I mean the names involved alone. I mean you when you talk about Henry Kissinger and the Schultz family and Joe Biden and even Rupert Murdoch. I mean it just it just seems stranger than fiction in a way which is fascinating. One of the things that people ask a lot about is about Elizabeth and we were having a conversation about it in one of the classes earlier about ethics and about that that line and it seems to me that you do see a sort of a clear line where things I mean things were going wrong from the beginning. But a clear line where a clear moment where that line was crossed.
[00:26:18] The point of no return. Exactly. And so, I'll preface that by saying that in my view Elizabeth Holmes was not a Bernie Madoff who one day when she dropped out of Stanford decided to go rogue and to say I'm going to I'm going to do a long con I'm going to premeditate this con and I'm going to defraud investors and put patients in harm's way. I don't believe that's what happened I believe she dropped out of Stanford in 2003 with the best intentions. She wanted to. She was ambitious and driven and she had this idea that she also would be good for society that would help improve blood testing and make it more user friendly potentially even lead to you know save lives. I think it's a story where you know as she went along she lost her way. She began to cut corners. She began to tell small lies that became big lies. She never acknowledged those scientific setbacks that she and her teams encountered along the way and she pretended that everything was hunky dory to the board and to investors. And she reached this point of no return in the fall of 2013 when she decides to go live with the technology and Walgreens stores and to commercialize it. First into Walgreens stores in Northern California and then in another 40 or so in the Phoenix area. And that's where this morphs into a massive fraud because its no longer just investors being lied to. It's also patients their lives being you know toyed with essentially. And I think most people who have either read the book or are familiar with my journal reporting and you know have come to learn all the facts of this story. I think most nine out of ten maybe ninety nine out of 100 people are outraged by this that she was so cavalier about patients' lives and that they were just you know pawns to her in her quest to become the next Steve Jobs and to join this pantheon of successful Silicon Valley billionaires.
[00:28:32] Well that's one of the things you mentioned in your talk today that that really hit home for me there is this myth or the concept of the myth of the mythical icon. And in Silicon Valley so and she looked up to the Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, All of these people and end with software. There is a tradition of as you said a fake it till you make it a thing. But there's a big difference here with the medical part.
[00:29:01] Right And she absolutely idolized Jobs. I mean shit to the point that she started dressing like him in the early years of the company and really up until recently she was always wearing a black turtleneck. She wanted her various blood testing machines to look like a Mac or an iPhone. She was constantly invoking Jobs and Apple another role model was Larry Ellison who was actually an early investor in Theranos. And you know talking about faking it until you make it. Larry Ellison was arguably the biggest practitioner of that he in the early years of Oracle. They would ship database software that was crawling with bugs to the point that early clients of Oracle would call Oracle's programmers and work with them to debug the software after they'd already paid for it.
[00:29:55] That's crazy.
[00:29:56] And meanwhile Ellison would be trumpeting these new features that his programmers hadn't even begun working on. So, he was a big practitioner of fake it tills you make it. And in Elisabeth's eyes you know he got away with it. Now he's one of the richest people in the world and Oracle is one of the most respected you know Fortune 100 companies. And you know she thought if a guy like Larry Ellison if Steve Jobs her hero or Bill Gates all these people were able to get away with faking it till they made it early in their careers then why wasn't she entitled to do the same thing and behave the same way. And the answer is Well there's a big difference. You know those guys were from the computer world and their products were hardware computer hardware and software. And you can put out a software product that's buggy or a smartphone app even that's buggy and it's not going to affect life with medicine. If you're putting out a blood testing device that doesn't work and you're leading doctors and patients to rely on it for important health decisions then you are putting lives in jeopardy. The stakes are much higher in medicine and the Silicon Valley playbook is ill suited to medicine. Unfortunately, she either didn't realize that or she knew it on some level but preferred to ignore it as she pursued her quest.
[00:31:23] And so many of the tests already have been voided and I know there's a recommendation that every test.
[00:31:30] Right Theranos voided about a million blood tests. After my reporting expose the company and I know for a fact that the last laboratory director at the company he was hired to try to clean up the operation recommended to Elizabeth Holmes that she void many more millions of blood tests because the quality control inside the laboratory was so nonexistent that he felt they couldn't vouch for really any of the tests that Theranos had put out. But Elizabeth didn't listen to it so they stopped voiding it out at about 1 million. This gives you a scale of the you know the public health catastrophe that this thing could have been.
[00:32:11] Yeah. Well thank you for that outline and stories about the book. It's time for another musical break when we come back I'd love to maybe talk about some of the other people who are involved and kind of how maybe how they're doing now. And some of the pushback that you've experienced I know people are very curious about that as well. In the meantime, let's listen to another song. This song is called A00 B01. Interesting title and the artist are Juana Molina. And this is K91ɬÂþ Thunder 91.1
[00:37:04] All right well welcome back. That's kind of an unusual song that I'm kind of in this band right now. That is Juana Molina and that song is A00 B01. And this is Lynn Vartan You're listening to the A.P.E.X Hour and I'd like to welcome back in my guest for today John Carreyrou. Welcome back.
[00:37:22] Hello again.
[00:37:23] We've been talking about your book Bad Blood which exposes the Theranos scandal and tells everything about it and one of the things that I think people are really drawn to is all of the people who had the courage to come and speak to you and talk to you and give you the fuel for this story. We've spent a little bit of time talking about Tyler and Erica and some of the people and I wondered if you could give us a little bit of an update on how things are going for the ones that you can tell us about.
[00:37:59] So I guess my first and most important source was the laboratory director who at the time I made contact with him in early 2015 had just left Theranos and I'm still protecting his identity to this day so I can't say much about him. He goes by the pseudonym in the book Alan Beam and he's probably the story's biggest hero. Two other heroes and who are corroborating sources are Tyler Schultz the grandson of our former Secretary of State George Shultz who was a Theranos board member and his friend who was also Theranos employee Erika Chung. and They spent about eight months each working at the company in 2013-2014 and left after trying to alert Tyler's grandfather to their misgivings about what was going on. And I eventually made contact with them and they became sources for me and you know they Tyler especially had to withstand tremendous pressure because Theranos and its lawyers figured out that he was one of my sources. And so, they did things like ambush him in the house of his grandfather on the Stanford campus and threaten him with litigation tried to get him to admit that he was a source of mine and to retract what he had told me and to name my other sources. and He you know had to deal with this these threats and this intimidation campaign for months until I published my first story. He had to hire lawyers. His parents spent almost a half million dollars on legal fees defending him. In the end he stood firm. He never signed any of the pieces of paper that the Theranos put to him. He never recanted. He's a real hero here and so is Erica by the way and Theranos tried to threaten Erica too. Ambushed her in the parking lot late one Friday of her new employer with an envelope containing a threatening letter from David Boies. And even more than the contents of the letter itself which freaked out the most were the words on the envelope. The address on the envelope was the address of a colleague of hers whose house she'd only been staying at for two weeks And no one knew other than the colleague not even her mother, that She was living there. And so, Erika became terrified because she understood that she was under surveillance. These are the types of tactics that this company and its lawyers engaged in. I mean we're talking about thuggish tactics used against young people you know Tyler and Erica were 24-25 years old at the at the time of these events and all they did was try to do the right thing and that's how the company repaid them. In terms of where they are now that they're doing good. Tyler has started his own company and its funded and he's got a couple employees that's based in San Francisco and it's trying to create diagnostic technology of its own. His grandfather for a long time was estranged from him and sided with Elizabeth Holmes over his own grandson which was one of the tragedies of this story. But fortunately, in recent months George has come around and seen the light and apologized to Tyler and called Tyler a hero in front of the entire Schultz family.
[00:41:41] Wow.
[00:41:41] So that's been that's been great vindication for Tyler and nice also that he's mending the fences with his grandfather. And Erica is currently living in Hong Kong and she's the head of an incubator there startup incubator and she's doing great as well. I saw both of them about a month ago at the Sundance Film Festival where I was to attend the premiere of the Theranos documentary that will air soon on HBO. It's called the inventor and the director is Alex Gibney.
[00:42:13] OK great. So, we can be on the lookout for that.
[00:42:16] March 18th.
[00:42:17] March 18th HBO. OK. The Inventor. Well that is really heartening to hear how Tyler's story has turned around a bit because it's really heartbreaking to read and, in the book, and it's a really interesting statement on these young people in these companies who really had the ethics to stand firm.
[00:42:43] Right. Yeah. I mean they were they were young but they were well-educated. Tyler had graduated from Stanford and Erica had graduated from Berkeley. And they were both biology majors and even though they hadn't gone to med school and they weren't Ph.D.'s they had enough science training to know that some of the behaviors that they witnessed during their stints at Theranos were not right. That cherry-picking data When you're running scientific experiments they knew that that's not how real science works. You don't conveniently get rid of data points that you know don't confirm your hypothesis. And they also you know at the time consulted with colleagues of theirs who were older and more experienced who confirmed their misgivings and so in the end they went by their own personal moral compasses and they acted in a way and the thing and the way I'm sorry that they felt was the right way to act. And initially you know that the company retaliated against them but now it's been about three years since my first story was published there actually you know they've been vindicated and they're both doing well. I know they were recently at Stanford on the Stanford campus invited to talk about their experiences as whistleblowers. And you know they got a big ovation there in one of the auditoriums on the Stanford campus so everything has turned out well for them.
[00:44:22] That's fantastic. Very inspiring. And you had to weather quite the storm as well. As I understand it was that a significant amount of pushback. Perhaps the most you've seen.
[00:44:34] Oh yeah for sure in 20 years of reporting I've never seen anything like it. You know we had to deal with David Boies arguably you know the most fearsome litigator in America. who Came to our offices not once but twice to threaten us and try to intimidate us. We received multiple letters from him making clear that that Theranos was going to sue us for defamation if we continued down the road we were headed. Erica, Tyler, and Alan Beam the ex-lab director were all put under surveillance. The company hired private investigators to surveil them. Tyler's parents were even under surveillance. Sonny Bhawani Elizabeth Holmes's boyfriend, the ex-number two executive at the company flew to Phoenix and threatened in person the doctors who had cooperated with my story on the record and who had put me in touch with patients who had gotten discordant blood test results. Sonny actually threaten these doctors and tried to get them to sign prepared statements recanting what they had told me. I had never encountered anything like this in 20 years of reporting. It was really surreal was felt like I was in a Hollywood movie.
[00:46:01] Well and I know people have been asking you. Speaking of movies are there plans. And we've been talking a little bit, but is there anything you can share with our audience about a future movie.
[00:46:13] Right. So, there are plans for a Hollywood movie. My book Bad Blood has been optioned by the studio Legendary Entertainment and Adam McKay the director of the Big Short and Vice is attached to produce and to direct the movie and Jennifer Lawrence is attached to star as Elizabeth Holmes. And Vanessa Taylor who cowrote the Shape of Water is currently hard at work on the screenplay. And I'm told the screenplay should be ready within the next three weeks.
[00:46:45] Wow.
[00:46:45] And so hopefully you know maybe the shooting starts sometime this year or next. But there certainly are plans afoot for a movie.
[00:46:58] Fantastic. We can't wait. But in the meantime, if you have not already picked up a copy and read Bad Blood by John Carreyrou please do so. I promise you will not want to put it down. It is just such a fascinating story told in such a skillful way. And then as we mentioned there will be a documentary coming out on HBO in March called The Inventor. And then after that the movie. Well we are almost out of time today. But John I have a question that I always ask my guest which is a little bit of a playful one and it's what is turning you on this week. And of course, it could be anything it's just a little personal tidbit for our audience members who listen and it could be it could be a TV show a movie a book a podcast a song a band whatever you like. So, John Carreyrou what's turning you on this week.
[00:47:53] Right. So, as I mentioned earlier in the interview I'm half French. My father is French and I grew up in Paris and so I'm a big supporter of the French national team the soccer team and I'm also a rabid fan of Paris-Saint-Germaine, Paris's soccer club. And by the way Neymar you may have heard of him plays for PSG and they're playing Manchester United tomorrow in the second leg of their champions league match and PSG won in Manchester a couple of weeks ago 2-0. So, they're in good position to advance but you never know and I'll be keeping a close eye on tomorrow's game.
[00:48:36] Fantastic. That's great. Thank you so much for sharing. Well thank you so much John for spending the time in the studio today and for sharing about your Book Bad Blood, everybody checks it out for sure. That's all the time we have today. I'm going to sign off here and we will be off next week for spring break but we will see you later. Bye for today from the A.P.E.X Hour.
[00:49:01] Thanks so much for listening to the A.P.E.X Hour here on K91ɬÂþ Thunder 91.1 Come find us again next Thursday at 3:00p.m. for more conversations with the visiting guests at Southern Utah University and new music to discover for your next playlist. And in the meantime, we would love to see you at our events on campus. Find out more check out suu.edu/apex. Until next week. This is Lynn Vartan saying goodbye from the A.P.E.X Hour here on Thunder 91.1
